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Before | After

Warning: may contain peanuts

I really don't want to wade into the shitstorm around VVC (lather, rinse, repeat). I'm really sad at seeing people I care about being attacked all over LJ, especially by people who have never/will never have anything to do with the con but feel compelled to dogpile on whatever train wreck they can, even though they offer nothing of constructive value and just feed more out misinformation that then gets perpetuated to still more people.


But I always feel like I have to be historical perspective gal. There's a reason a lot of the older fans aren't talking about the warnings "issue" -- scare quotes because I think it's a non-issue that some people want to become an issue. It's because we've been here before, at least a couple of times, and we're pretty much tired of talking about it. We also come from a very different generation and mindset of fandom, one that was told, for right or wrong, you have to take responsibility for your own shit. A lot of us grew up in a time when snack foods didn't contain warnings that they may contain peanuts or were made in factories where peanuts were used, and toys had parts that kids could probably at some point pop off and try to swallow, and a lot of cars didn't even have seatbelts in back, let alone car seats you would strap your kid into. It was basically the freaking wild wild west out there, and even though now some of those things seem kind of "duh, why didn't they fix that," it was absolutely not the mindset we grew up with.

If you think I'm being flippant by bringing this up, you're wrong. I tell you this because all of our views on the world have been highly influenced by the kind of world we grew up in -- each and every one of us. We can change our outlooks -- we're none of us locked into one mindset that can't change. But a lot of people are perfectly content with the way they look at life (either pro or anti), and when you get two really radically different outlooks on things like warnings or protection, you'll inevitably clash. This isn't the first time it's happened in vid circles, and it won't be the last, sadly. What is a little different this time is the tendency a lot of fans have toward Balkanization -- we don't like your ideas, so we're taking our ball and going off to start our own game, fuck you.

Back in the day, there weren't quite so many fans. There certainly weren't quite so many vids and vidders, and there weren't quite so many cons and places to play vids for a large audience. There was no such thing as online streaming of vids. One of the most well-known and probably the gold standard of vid shows was the Escapade premieres show on Saturday night of the con. That was the setting of the last big warnings brou-ha-ha, the place where the idea of the "overflow" room got started, and the place the whole idea of setting some loose rules of respect got going. There was no Vividcon yet -- a lot of the people who started that con went to Escapade, in fact. That's where they developed their experience and mind set.

There was a vid that showed one year -- Jo's Oz vid Prison Sex, to be exact -- that included clips of all manner of prison violence, because that's, you know, what they do on Oz. Afterward, a fan was heard to complain to the person in charge of the vid show that "something has to be done about Oz." On the Vidder email list later, she complained to a wider public (the only vidding community, really, at that time), and then the whole thing erupted into an issue because she wanted warnings on the vids. Keep in mind there were no booklets with playlists and blurbs, most things were still primarily made on VCRs or very early, dodgy computer vid setups, and outside of a run list and some response sheets, you looked at any vid show pretty much as an unknown. That was accepted -- part of the enjoyment was the unknown. For a lot of people today, it still is, and that's something that's important to keep in mind when you talk about things like warnings.

So for weeks, we had this onlist shitstorm over the warnings thing -- what, most of the vidders wanted to know, would we warn for? Everything that could possibly offend or upset anyone at any time? Like, maybe, may contain wrestling (as the Oz vid had)? Would we run those in front of the vid in some long list form? There were also some vids that year many people didn't think were fannish (I think it was either a professional wrestlers vid), so there was much argumentation about that. The discussion raged on and on. And eventually it played out, and nothing much changed except that people got cranky and there was a lot of running off with balls, and there was a further divide between people who think bags of peanuts should contain warnings that they may contain peanuts and people who think that if you've got issues, you should just go away, or skip the vid shows where you might not be able to deal with them. Right or wrong, that's what happened. (And I really don't know where this idea developed that older vids were all sweetness and light, but I can promise you, they weren't.)

Here, I'd fast forward to 2010, except that there are two other things of note about that con, and one other thing of note about the person who demanded warnings for stuff she didn't like. That was the year we first (meaning, I did) got up in front of the room and asked people to maybe not stand up and dance in front of people trying to watch the vids, or talking over them, or singing along like they were at a beer hall. During the first half of the show, people had come back to the control table and complained about the level of intrusion on the vids, and since I wasn't afraid to talk in front of a large crowd, at halftime, I went up and asked people to chill (I think I basically said "don't make me come out there"). The person who complained about the Oz vid also left in the middle of another entirely pleasant vid, with her entourage, completely disrupting most of that vid for the people seated nearby (she left because her vid had already been shown, so clearly, there was no need to stay to see the other vids, and I felt so bad for the vidder whose work she and her friends so rudely interrupted). And viewers were livid about that, so in all future vid shows, I asked that people consider leaving during the break between vids if at all possible.

That whole show that year was just... surreal, now that I look back at it. We were in a huge ballroom, with two mid-size TVs on carts -- this was before the projectors -- and I think the sheer size of it, maybe the giddiness of being in a large room with space instead of the cramped quarters we'd been in before, just made some people behave in the most appalling fashion. I was shocked that I actually had to tell people to behave like grownups. But a lot of what informed the guidelines for VVC came about through that experience -- after that year, we always started the show with my little spiel about being respectful; eventually some vidders made the cute little introductory vids that said the same thing (at both VVC and Escapade); and one more significant thing occurred: that was when we began kicking around the idea of an overflow, or noisy, room.

It took a while for us to be able to do that efficiently. We had to string and tape co-ax cable, usually through a hotel kitchen, through hallways, and into another room. Hundreds of feet of co-ax. I can't tell you how much time that took. It was miserable work, and it took four or so of us to do it, set up the room for the main show, and get the timing to synch up. At that point, we were still swapping in and out both tapes and video discs (I don't even think we had DVDs at that point, just VCDs), and stuff always went wrong. But for people who wanted to get up, move around, sing along, laugh and talk, that room was a godsend. I know a lot of folks think that type of room was set up to shunt off people with disabilities at VVC, but that's just not true. It was created elsewhere, imported into the VVC setup, and was supposed to be a thing of good, and a lot of people did enjoy it that way. We had the technology (sort of) to create spaces that could accommodate people with different needs -- from those who wanted to be in the "quiet" room to those who only wanted to see one or two vids and move about freely.

So, to bring all this tl;dr back to warnings. I've seen people make statements like "these are all people who've suffered traumatic events" and other hyperbole like that, and then on the other side, there's the equally hyperbolic whiners and crybabies tag. Neither of these does anyone any good. There are plenty of people who want the vidders (or show comm) to take responsibility for whatever their issue is and are coming from a purely selfish, may contain peanuts place under the guise of trauma. And there are plenty of people who have legitimate issues who would like the con to feel more accessible to them. There are far too many variables, and different types of people with different motivations, to say any one position is purely this or that. And all of us have to figure out how a lot of different viewpoints can be accommodated.

A long time ago, I wrote another tl;dr post about a similar issue, and how a friend of mind had been laughing at the latest kerfuffle and commented that "this has happened before." And my response was then, as it is now, "Yes, but this is the first time it's happened to them." To me, the saddest thing about all this shit flying and accusations being dropped is that so many of the most strident messages are coming from people who've never bothered to learn about the history of these things, so they make a lot of blanket assumptions and tar everyone with a very wide brush. This info is out there. There are older fans who can be resources for historical perspective on how or why things are the way they are, and how things can be changed. Yelling and screaming rarely does change anything positively, but trying to understand how things developed, and then working within those frameworks to effect change, often does. I so rarely see younger fans take any interest in the history of fandom, and try to put the issues or challenges into the perspective of that history, and that makes me just incredibly tired and incredibly depressed.

It's really easy to accuse people of bad intentions, but I would like to point out that, historically, these problems rarely develop because of bad intentions. They are often really simple core problems of experience -- people who come from vastly, wildly different circumstances and viewpoints, and don't have the perspective of the person all the way on the other side of the valley. Calling people bitches and saying they don't give a shit about how anyone else feels because they revile the concept of warnings on vids (which I saw in an LJ comment) is about as productive as saying someone who can't watch a vid showing someone being raped is a big baby. Neither comment allows us to understand the viewpoint of someone who holds a hugely different perspective from us.

I have hated seeing something I value and enjoy being torn apart like this for going on almost a year, as if this con is the only place with problems out there. But I'm also really glad I'm not going this year, because I don't even feel like being around a lot of the people I have thought of as good acquaintances before, just because so many of them are acting as if this is a new, intractable issue that can crushed by who screams the loudest.

It's not the first time it's happened, and my guess is? It won't be the last, although it certainly might be my last. As fandom becomes ever larger and ever more mainstream, and we completely lose the perspective of its history, I don't know that I have the stomach for it much anymore.

ETA: I'm screening comments on this, unfortunately, now that it's been metafandomed and the cowards are posting anonymous hate.

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Comments

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(Deleted comment)
gwyn_r
Jul. 3rd, 2010 06:53 am (UTC)
Thanks for this. I can assure you, some people don't think of it as perspective, and are just more pissed off (I don't think they actually read the whole post, but you can't make people do that). I know what you mean about the urge to be done. Right now, I'm seriously thinking about gafiating. This whole thing is just too much, at this point.
kita0610
Jul. 2nd, 2010 09:12 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I don't know about the warnings thing, but the disgusting, vile comments around disability and accessibility are enough to make me vomit.

So you know. If you're seeing anger, there's a reason.
unovis
Jul. 2nd, 2010 09:38 pm (UTC)
Thanks for posting this. I didn't begin attending Vividcon until three years ago (tried, but work always got in the way). I think personal experience and anecdote is valuable.

Sorry you won't be there this year.

Edited at 2010-07-03 01:33 am (UTC)
gwyn_r
Jul. 3rd, 2010 06:56 am (UTC)
I know -- in some ways, I really do wish I could be there (and also, I really wanted to talk with you about jewelry!!), but in others, I think it's a really good thing. I am so, so sick of so many people right now... I don't know if the good would outweigh the bad. I think it might but... it seems HARD right now!
kirbyfest
Jul. 2nd, 2010 10:01 pm (UTC)
Thank you.

I'm not sorry I'm missing this year, either, other than missing the people. And if you're not there, anyway, you're one of the people I'd have been missing. :)
gwyn_r
Jul. 3rd, 2010 06:59 am (UTC)
You know, money was the primary hurdle, but there was also the added factor of knowing you wouldn't be there, nor would Merry, Seah, and Margie again. Since at this point I want to mostly come for people, that has a huge weight to me.

I really do wonder what the next year holds, if I'll even be here. I'm always going to be a fan, but every part of my fannish life right now is surrounded by unpleasant shitstorms (even BPAL for crying out loud) that I think a long break is in order).

Edited at 2010-07-03 06:43 pm (UTC)
p_zeitgeist
Jul. 3rd, 2010 03:45 pm (UTC)
Thank you. This is fascinating and tremendously useful -- it's great to see this (I think important and under-known) history laid out so clearly, and of course it only adds to the value that it's the account of a person who was, you know, actually there.
gwyn_r
Jul. 4th, 2010 06:43 pm (UTC)
Thank you! I think that a lot of this has just gotten lost, and unfortunately, a lot of newer fans just really don't care, so a lot of this will continue to disappear as people leave fandom or...well, die. Whatever shakes out, it has to be done with perspective and involvement from everyone, but I think many people just... they can't see that.
slashpine
Jul. 4th, 2010 04:06 am (UTC)
Here from metafandom (on IJ)
Thank you for all of this!

I so rarely see younger fans take any interest in the history of fandom, and try to put their issues or challenges into the perspective of that history, and that makes me just incredibly tired and incredibly depressed.

I think this is one of the things I liked the most about Escapade, when I got to go - the willingness to recount fandom history, to *clue people in*. Which is just amazing and awesome and fun. :D :D :D But I also wish younger - or make that newer fans, 'cos a lot of that crushing out others' opinions with loudness and fury can come from older fans, alas - would learn some history (any history!). With history comes understanding of context and the sheer *diversity* of the world, including fandom. And with that comes more calmness and constructiveness.

I really can't say it better than you:

so many of the most strident messages are coming from people who've never bothered to learn about the history of these things, so they make a lot of blanket assumptions and tar everyone with a very wide brush. This info is out there. There are older fans who can be resources for historical perspective on how or why things are the way they are, and how things might be changed.

I agree it's depressing to have to keep repeating this kind of thing, but OTOH it does slowly educate the as-yet unaware, remind those who found it easier to forget (or more fun to dogpile people, blegh), and hearten those who know, and keep hoping, but are slowly beginning to maybe also wonder about fandom.

I have pretty much avoided LJ and a lot of the comms and cons where it seems to have been one wank or fail after another the last couple years. *sigh* But this post of yours is a gracious, clear reminder not just about history, and manners, but the importance of hanging in there! Cos fandom is worth it, worth even having to repeat these histories multiple times. People *do* listen.

*hugs mature fans*
gwyn_r
Jul. 4th, 2010 07:06 pm (UTC)
Re: Here from metafandom (on IJ)
Thank you so much for the comments. I'm not personally invested in the either-ors of all this so much as I'm invested in making people understand that historically these things don't get solved by yelling at each other and accusing each other of malfeasance. All those things about when I grew up have changed, because people made them happen through processes. And now people aren't faced with the idea that if they have emotional problems, they have to suck it up. But when I grew up, that was the norm, and it's always been hard for me to see asking for help as anything but failure to take responsibility for myself.
(Deleted comment)
the_star_fish
Jul. 4th, 2010 11:26 am (UTC)
At least she signed her name to them.

Also, your comprehension fail is astounding.
gwyn_r
Jul. 4th, 2010 06:37 pm (UTC)
I really appreciate your comment. I think it's best if I just delete the comment, it's giving me stomach pains. I don't mind disagreement, but I do mind people who attack and call names instead of acting like adults.

Also, HUGH!
the_star_fish
Jul. 5th, 2010 02:48 am (UTC)
Delete away, but also please tell me where is the Flashpoint fandom??? Also also I am friending you.
gwyn_r
Jul. 8th, 2010 02:42 am (UTC)
You know, I wish to hell I knew why Flashpoint hasn't become a bigger fandom. There's slash! There's het! There's gen! There's TEAM!! ANd there's HUGH FUCKING DILLON! WTF?

Do you know about the community called the constabulary? It's not super active, but I think that has a lot to do with the way CBS shuffled the show around here in the states.
the_star_fish
Jul. 8th, 2010 03:31 am (UTC)
I will search on it! And I don't know from CBS; I *koff* acquired the series from ... somewhere. <.< >.> But I can imagine they wouldn't know what to do with a show like that. I just want MORE.
jackiekjono
Jul. 4th, 2010 04:27 pm (UTC)
You know, if you really think Gwyn was wishing death to all who have peanut allergies, I think you may be one of those people who doesn't actually read to ascertain arguments but just looks for keywords to get pissed off about so that you can rant.
gwyn_r
Jul. 4th, 2010 06:38 pm (UTC)
THank you, Jackie. I think for my own stomach I'm going to delete the comment, because it just makes me kind of queasy. I really wish I wasn't in fandom anymore these days, it just seems to be increasingly full of psychos.
jackiekjono
Jul. 4th, 2010 07:58 pm (UTC)
It makes sense to me. I have annoying allergies and know that you do not wish me dead.

the weirdest thing to me about this whole business is that in my experience, we spend more time talking about each others aches, pains, and mental trauma than we do talking about vids at Vividcon. I mean at least two members of the concom have Fibromayalgia, at least one has an autistic child, 6 people with EDS have attended the con and that is supposed to be such a vanishingly rare diagnosis that most doctors have never heard of it but, someone construed a sentence in a document as potentially meaning something it didn't really mean and suddenly we are all evil hateful people who wish all the people in wheelchairs would die.

I don't get it. I really don't.
gwyn_r
Jul. 4th, 2010 09:10 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I don't understand why this is so hard: Stop with the hyperbole to make your arguments, stop framing it as an only one size fits all solution, stop acting as though history doesn't matter, and for fuck's sake, listen to people before you make up your mind. If you do that, you're halfway to reaching consensus.

I have lots of issues. One of mine, that no one would ever warn for because it's so vanishingly rare that no one would even think about it, has formed everything about me, and I don't talk about it to anyone, ever. I've had trauma around it that has basically ruined a lot of my life. And people think it's funny -- it's something that lots of people joke about, and there are characters in certain series who have had my trauma, but I don't expect anyone to understand this. I'm also a rape survivor and I have pretty severe PTSD around the loss of my twin. ANd so when some asshat comes in here and calls me a sociopath and tells me I don't give a shit about other people's feelings, and implies I think people dying from peanut allergies is funny, I just... really, I wish I was a sociopath, because then I could murder someone without feeling bad about it.

I'm really tired of people framing this argument as though it's all one thing or the other, and acting as if people have to have the correct bona fides to make any comment at all. One person immediately defriended and denied me access to her DW and then mocked me in a post about how old fans apparently want to tyrannize everyone and refuse to change. Wow, way to miss the point of the post completely and utterly.

I stopped taking antidepressants, which I've been on since about a year after sis_r died, and everything and everyone just makes me want to fucking cut my wrists right now. I'm trying to work, because I've got this huge book deadline Thursday, but I can't really focus.
jackiekjono
Jul. 5th, 2010 12:35 am (UTC)
Well, I still love you.

I have issues about seeing depictions of rape, too, though my issues are more about survivor guilt than ptsd. I once managed to dodge a particularly nasty bullet that hit my cousin instead.

I have a hard time with depictions of rape but, if I was warned about that with Killa and TJonesy's Closer vid, I would have never watched it and would have missed out on the one depiction of it that does not hit me that way.
(Deleted comment)
gwyn_r
Jul. 4th, 2010 11:04 pm (UTC)
This just galls me beyond ability to repair. I mean, you have given me so much perspective on what it means to be a fan with a disability and move in fannish circles, which often aren't the most accommodating because they're beholden to the spaces they rent. That anyone has the nerve to tell you that you fail at disability issues just... well, here I am wishing I really was a sociopath again.
morgandawn
Jul. 4th, 2010 11:52 pm (UTC)
Does it make me a sociopath when my first thought was to start shouting, Shatner-like: "Ha! FailFan! I am *not* laughing at your *not* superior intellect!"

Or perhaps it just makes me crazy. Like a duck.

Edited at 2010-07-06 05:13 am (UTC)
jackiekjono
Jul. 5th, 2010 06:02 am (UTC)
I still love you.

I can see why people were angry at that original document. Something that I saw as kind of a wink and a nudge (the bitchiness line) because it obviously (to me) wasn't meant to be taken seriously was taken very seriously. That part makes some sense.

Then all of a sudden trigger warnings got mixed in with it and people started pulling out the ADA and claiming that it means you have to do X, Y and the other thing and eeep.

I am ambivalent about warnings. Part of me thinks they may be a good idea and the other part knows that they would substantially change the culture of the con in ways that are impossible to predict. Some of them might be good changes but, would other Morgan have even made West of Her Spine if she had to put some kind of a label on it? Would I have ever watched "Closer" had it come with a rape label? How would that impact what gets made?

And the thing is - that actually is a huge burden. It's another big job that would require another person willing to do it who will undoubtedly get ripped on for not doing it perfectly.
kadymae
Jul. 6th, 2010 01:01 am (UTC)
hey I use a wheelchair and I've been told pretty much the same thing: that I "fail" at disability issues and that I hate disabled people.

There is not enough WTF on the planet for this.
mecurtin
Jul. 6th, 2010 02:40 am (UTC)
This is where my patience goes where the dead frogs go. whoops! bye-bye, no more.

I'm tempted to ask who this was, so they can go on my NATURE SAYS DO NOT TOUCH list, but that would be ... catty and uncharitable.

Feel free to imagine me meowing vindictively in the corner.
morgandawn
Jul. 6th, 2010 06:25 am (UTC)
I went back and re-read it - I stand corrected. It didn't say I hated the disabled, it said: I lacked empathy.

I guess all my pain receptors got burned out the last time I went screaming to the floor when my knee dislocated.

I am starting to think that there must be a fail form letter or handbook because upon closer inspection I am seeing familiar buzzwords (I've avoided most fail discussions up till now - for obvious reasons).

edited: I removed the OP up thread because I was wrong about what it said and I cannot edit it.

Edited at 2010-07-07 07:10 am (UTC)
gwyn_r
Jul. 4th, 2010 06:35 pm (UTC)
And I think you're a fucking psycho and a coward. So we're square. And also? BAHLEET.
the_star_fish
Jul. 4th, 2010 11:31 am (UTC)
We've never met, probably never will, but I wanted to say thank you for this. It's incredible to see the people who are trying to help get stomped on like this. People make me so sad.
(Deleted comment)
gwyn_r
Jul. 4th, 2010 09:15 pm (UTC)
Thank you, very much. That comes on the heels of that horrible comment last night, and really helps a lot. I'm so glad to hear of newer fans who don't immediately assume long-time fans have some kind of hateful agenda, and that we're all coming from really different worlds. So, yay you!
glasshouses
Jul. 5th, 2010 12:15 am (UTC)
Thank you for explaining the origin of the Escapade overflow room. It's amazing how in my early days of fandom, I was oblivious to a lot of the controversy and wank. I thought the overflow room was for people who would be going in and out a lot, so they didn't disturb in the main auditorium. Seating was also easier for those using wheelchairs and crutches (as I did one year).

Since one of my goals at Escapade was to spend that one weekend a year in a mostly inebriated state, I liked it because I could leave to get more liquor :-)
gwyn_r
Jul. 8th, 2010 02:34 am (UTC)
I personally think being inebriated most of the time is the best way to enjoy any con!!

I love the quiet rooms, myself, but I also think that if my RLS issues get worse, that overflow room is going to be my bestest friend ever. It is so much easier there to deal with physical problems. One of my big problems, though, is that I have a hearing issue and some significant damage to my ears, and I don't filter sounds well -- all sound is at pretty much the same input level, so someone talking or whispering or singing becomes just as noisy as the music. At some point, I have a feeling that may change and any more noise in the overflow will be less important than leg comfort!
sherrold
Jul. 5th, 2010 04:46 am (UTC)
Thanks for the history!
Although I was vidding at all of those Escapades, I never was involved in all the hard work of setup (and I have a terrible memory anyway [g]), and I really appreciate it.
gwyn_r
Jul. 8th, 2010 02:30 am (UTC)
Re: Thanks for the history!
I think you can just use Mulder's excuse: I was drugged!! It's as good an excuse as any for not knowing the behind the scenes stuff. ;-)
vchrusch
Jul. 5th, 2010 10:12 pm (UTC)
I read this post yesterday afternoon and was going to leave a comment basically saying that I have to agree with what you wrote, but didn't bother at the time. So today I'm leaving that comment and adding that historical perspective is very very important and it seems to elude the generations that came after us. And that makes me sad, depressed, and even more cynical.
gwyn_r
Jul. 8th, 2010 02:35 am (UTC)
Yeah, I wish... I just wish more people could understand that none of this is new, and none of this exists in a vacuum conveniently marked VVC only. Why is it so hard?
kassto
Jul. 6th, 2010 02:16 am (UTC)
If people can't be respectful, tolerant and civil — or at least try to be — over these trivial things, how are they going to cope when something really big and difficult happens to them?..............................
gwyn_r
Jul. 8th, 2010 02:37 am (UTC)
There's a part of me that wonders, andy maybe I can ask you, do you think this is significantly American behavior? I feel like I don't see people from other countries get this out of control, that most of the worst of the taking sides and getting hysterical and not listening comes from fans in the US. But I realize it would be simply the subset I see most.
kassto
Jul. 8th, 2010 03:37 am (UTC)
Interesting you should ask that. I'm a New Zealander and I think we are more laidback/reserved than Americans. We find Americans have a tendency to overreact, but I think the internet encourages it too.
soundingsea
Jul. 7th, 2010 03:02 am (UTC)
I appreciate hearing your perspective. (And I'm bummed that I'll miss hanging out at VVC with you this year.)
gwyn_r
Jul. 8th, 2010 02:38 am (UTC)
After Eunice's post, for the first time, I realized how many people and things I'm going to miss this year and felt sad. And I'm really sad I'm not going to get to see you, too -- I didn't spend much time with you last year and I remember us saying that this year we would make up for that... Stupid freelance life.
gabrielleabelle
Jul. 7th, 2010 03:08 pm (UTC)
I've read this post a number of times, and I keep finding something doesn't sit well with me. Please forgive me, as I'm not in on the vidding thing, so I'm very much just an interested bystander in this whole discussion.

I appreciate the history lesson, as it helps to contextualize some of the conversation and controversy that's going on at the moment. In particular, I found myself nodding along with this:

I've seen people make statements like "these are all people who've suffered traumatic events" and other hyperbole like that, and then on the other side, there's the equally hyperbolic whiners and crybabies tag. Neither of these does anyone any good.

and this:

It's really easy to accuse people of bad intentions, but I would like to point out that, historically, these problems rarely develop because of bad intentions. They are often really simple core problems of experience -- people who come from vastly, wildly different circumstances and viewpoints, and don't have the perspective of the person all the way on the other side of the valley. Calling people bitches and saying they don't give a shit about how anyone else feels because they revile the concept of warnings on vids (which I saw in an LJ comment) is about as productive as saying someone who can't watch a vid showing someone being raped is a big baby. Neither comment allows us to understand the viewpoint of someone who holds a hugely different perspective from us.

I think the hyperbole and skewed attributions on both sides are hindering progress in the current discussion, and so these are essential points.

But, and here's where I'm getting stuck...in your description of the events at Escapade, you use various phrases that are fairly problematic:

"she griped some more"

"the person who demanded warnings for stuff she didn't like."

"she and her cronies"

I don't know the details of this particular incident, but your narrative paints this individual as a whining whiner who whined for no good reason. This is at odds with your later call for understanding of different perspectives and calming of hyperbole. This bothers me. I imagine this person has a side to her story that makes sense from her perspective, and using words such as "cronies" and "demanded warnings" and "griped" do her a disservice.

...which seemed to be the overall point of your post. So I'm just left confused as to what to take away from this.
gwyn_r
Jul. 7th, 2010 06:12 pm (UTC)
What you can take away is that I despise the person in question. I should probably edit the language -- she's one of the few people in fandom who can make me that hateful. She's been kicked out of shows before because she's so rude and disruptive. The experiences with her have made most of us really flinchy about warnings, precisely because she did it more to raise a storm than about anything else.
gabrielleabelle
Jul. 7th, 2010 11:55 pm (UTC)
Gotcha. As a complete outsider, I was just struck by the apparent contradiction between message and delivery. I can understand if there's bad blood in the mix, but just from the narrative described, it seemed a pretty straightforward case of someone who would have preferred to be warned for something. Using such derogatory and negative language when referring to them seems to negate the latter part of the post.

And I just had a lightbulb moment and realized that you're Gwyneth Rhys and I have a good number of your Spuffy fics happily bookmarked. I have to bask in a bit of a fangirl moment now. :)
gwyn_r
Jul. 8th, 2010 02:29 am (UTC)
Nah, it was a good reminder that I should, you know, fix my shit. ;-) I think one of the things that was so bad about that last go-round of warnings was that that person was... well, very well-known for her self-absorption and rudeness about anything not in her interest. And I think there was a great opportunity for someone like that in "violence needs to be warned about" -- in some ways, I often wondered if it was really the sight of blood or someone getting, as she put it "their ass branded with a swastika" so much as the chance to pounce on the fact that it was not her fandom (that was how she often dismissed everything -- "not my fandom"). But now we'll never know!

Oh, that is such a nice thing to hear in all this. I'm so glad that those stories are still out there and people have enjoyed reading them. Now that I'm feeling more creative, I hope to get back to the WIP I abandoned, to my dismay, after my sister died.
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